Immigration

[Veret]

All right, so most of us probably know the whole deal about immigration/"job stealing"/minute men/etc. Recently a new bill has passed the house and is entering the senate with the support of the white house. This bill states, in no uncertain terms, that to give any aid at all to an illegal immigrant is a felony. "Aid", in this case, is taken so broadly that the law would be required to punish anyone who does the following, plus several other "felonies" not listed:

-Giving charity to an illegal immigrant
-Renting out a home or apartment to an immigrant
-Allowing an immigrant to purchase a house
-Giving medical care to an immigrant, regardless of circumstances
-Providing an immigrant with transportation (bus/cab drivers, carpool, etc)
-Educating an immigrant (most schools have at least one or two; this law could have several thousand teachers jailed)
-Responding to a 911 call placed by an immigrant (can you imagine having to check a person's legality before you put out the fire in their house?)
-Allowing immigrants to participate in a church

Bear in mind here that ignorance is not a valid excuse for lawbreaking; if a pastor doesn't know there is an illegal immigrant in his congregation, he can still be jailed for it. If one of your carpool friends suddenly reveals that he doesn't have papers, that makes you a felon too. Also, one of the most important things the bill would ban is the employment of illegal immigrants. That means you can kiss goodbye all of these:

-Construction workers
-Cleaning staff (no more Merry Maids...oh, and your janitor just got deported)
-Day laborers (looks like you have to do your own heavy lifting)
-Factory workers (so much for the GNP)

Land of the free, eh?

[Captain Awesome]

But think about it from an American worker's viewpoint. A bunch of weird-smelling people who can't even speak your language appear from out of nowhere, somehow convey to your boss that they will work for half your current wage, and then consequently you get fired. How would that feel? To lose the job you've made a living on for the last 15 years just because some people who aren't even part of your country will do it for less. Does that seem fair? And what if all the other jobs that you're qualified for have already been filled with more illegal immigrants? What will you do then? And little Timmy, who mows lawns in the summer to make money, what will he do when he finds out that all the neighbors have hired immigrant people to landscape their entire yards for pennies? And at the local restaurant you like so much; what'll happen when the new waiters they've hired don't even know what you ordered because they don't speak English?

The point is: American citizens, being citizens of America, deserve first choice of jobs. Not people who have snuck over here illegally. It's our country; it's our right to be employed.

[Blastgirl]

Wow. This is a tough issue and I have mixed feelings.

I could never turn my back on a person in need. I do understand how the House feels though only on the basis that Illegal Immigrants are oftan not registered and therefore they work for wages that are below minimun wage. Made to do things that American Labor Laws would protect employed people from but they're not legally employed so it's not pertaining there.

Also their employer is subjecting them to a job that should pay seven to ten dollars an hour and they're getting perhaps a salary that is below minimun wage, and put in danger.

That also means the employer is not collecting and paying the payroll tax.

If you work for ten dollars an hour, and you work forty hours you would not receive four hundred dollars on pay day. There are taxes taken out for FICA, Social Security, (That is usually about eight percent of the total.)

Then the Federal Tax is deducted, a State tax is deducted and there is a disability fare too. (That's sixty cents no matter what the pay total is.)

Hiring illegal immigrants hides those funds from going to their proper places. I don't agree with the rest of the things though. That is not very human. But lawyers have caused so many problems in recent years everything is all mixed up because most politicians are lawyers.

[Commandhat]

another fact we should move away from America .

I'm staying in America through faith and by the power of God alone. Even though America will suddenly lose 2/3rds of it's population. .

and I agree with LG29, it's OUR DAMN COUNTRY, WE DESERVE TO BE EMPLOYED.

[Phil]

I'm in the school of thought that says that too.

I would hate to lose my job to someone who is willing to comprimise their standard of living. In other words live in a more poverish situation to elbo me and others out of jobs.

I have a house to pay for and 2 kids to support and you never know there could be more kids eventually. So I would not want to have to lower my living standards.

I'm very willing to work though.

I would have to say that although the American way is not perfect but it the basis for the best living. Some other countries have caught up to the democritized ways but that came after following the American patterns.

I'll admit there are times that lawmakers put up patterns that make us all say 'how stupid' but in the long run this is a great nation.

And when you see what lengths people are willing to go through to get in here you get reminded how good we have it even at adverse times.

[mattis]

I seriously doubt it will pass in the current form.

veret said:

-Giving medical care to an immigrant, regardless of circumstances

so much for public hospitals. and the hippocratic oath. "I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone" out of fashion now, is it?

-Providing an immigrant with transportation (bus/cab drivers, carpool, etc)

bus drivers carding passengers would cause huge slowdowns, essentially nullifying scheduled bus routes. unless they implement "rider's licences" obtained from somewhere like the DMV, which would work, but would someone think of it in time?

-Educating an immigrant (most schools have at least one or two; this law could have several thousand teachers jailed)

so much for public schools.

-Responding to a 911 call placed by an immigrant (can you imagine having to check a person's legality before you put out the fire in their house?)

would slow down emergency response to the point of being almost useless.

-Allowing immigrants to participate in a church

major constitutional and ethical issues right there.


on the other hand, what about americans losing jobs, and immigrants getting paid pennies? enforcing minimum wage for everyone would help. also, isn't it kind of fair? if another american comes along and offers to do someone's job for less pay, they'll probably get it.

[Gudamor]

veret said:

This bill states, in no uncertain terms, that to give any aid at all to an illegal immigrant is a felony. "Aid", in this case, is taken so broadly that the law would be required to punish anyone who does the following, plus several other "felonies" not listed:

-Giving charity to an illegal immigrant
-Renting out a home or apartment to an immigrant
-Allowing an immigrant to purchase a house
-Giving medical care to an immigrant, regardless of circumstances
-Providing an immigrant with transportation (bus/cab drivers, carpool, etc)
-Educating an immigrant (most schools have at least one or two; this law could have several thousand teachers jailed)
-Responding to a 911 call placed by an immigrant (can you imagine having to check a person's legality before you put out the fire in their house?)
-Allowing immigrants to participate in a church

For most of these examples, it is extremely unlikely to find a court that would ever convict someone with this basis.

littleguy29 said:

weird-smelling people

littleguy29 said:

work for half your current wage

littleguy29 said:

And little Timmy, who mows lawns in the summer to make money, what will he do when he finds out that all the neighbors have hired immigrant people to landscape their entire yards for pennies?

Stereotypes and half-truths.

[Captain Awesome]

Of course I exaggerated. I was making a point.

[Gudamor]

There actually isn't a right to be employed in the Consititution as far as I know, and I'm not sure there could be one that wouldn't disrupt the capitalist system.

[Veret]

"Look, there's an American! Let's take his job!" --Immigrant man

It's true that immigrants are often willing to work harder for less pay, but companies take advantage of this by simply hiring out-of-country labor. If a company won't hire cheap labor outside of the US, they won't do it here either. If you're worried about losing your job to outside sources, it's more likely to be caused by rapidly expanding mega corporations, specifically wal-mart (evil company. Maybe I should make another topic).

gudamor said:

For most of these examples, it is extremely unlikely to find a court that would ever convict someone with this basis.

No court would be willing to enforce it, but they don't have a choice. If the wording of the law requires these things to be punished, then they have to do so until the supreme court declares it unconstitutional.

[Blastgirl]

A lot of baseball players are passported from South America, the Dominican Republics, Mexico and lately Japan. What's not often mentioned is some of them are slipped in and are not much different from an immigrant potentially taking a job from an American.

[Nog64]

Anyone see the anti-anti-immigration march in Chicago? 2 miles of people opposing the bill. Including the Myaor of chicago and the govenor of Illionis. I think that we should have our borders regualted, but not to the extent Bush wants. As for the "jobs" these immigrants are taking, do you want to cut meat, lift stuff or be a "lady of the evening" for $2/hr.? I didn't think so (hope so ). Trust me, we need immigrants.

EDIT: Oh yeah, my family's done most, if not all of those things, so if the lasw passes, uh, bye everybody! . And yes, I've been gone awhile. Guild Wars rox.

[Blastgirl]

Is Guild Wars a video game?

[Commandhat]

I'm suprised only me Veret and Stunts remember Runescape anymore. [/off topic]

My family hasen't done anything wrong, I'm lucky. ;D and I don't want to risk getting caught in a cut-off from computer time. :/

[Phil]

Who didn't remember runscope?

[Nog64]

blastgirl said:

Is Guild Wars a video game?

Yes. Yes it is

[Nog64]

Hey double posting time:
On May 1st, there's goning to be a big protest all throughout the U.S. (coincedentally on Worker's Day). I'm gonna go, I was just seeing if any of you guys were goin too.

[Phil]

I said what I said about not wanting to be undercut and possibly lose my job. And that's true. But I can also understand that some countries are so underprivledged that these people are willing to do anything to enter the land of opportunity.

There are some men on a horse ranch and that was on tv documantary. They were illegal immigrnats. They did not want their location revealed. They pretty much shovel horse crap for a living. I don't know if they're paid wages or just given a place to live. By American standards that's not much of a life but they immedately insist it's better than the life they left.