Ground Zero Victory Mosque

[Jersey]

Looks like I'm going to be the one to start the discussion, since it hasn't been posted yet. And I don't even care what is said to me directly in response to what I'm about to say. If you agree with me, fine. If not....no comment. This will be my only post in this topic.

The Ground Zero Victory Mosque that they are preparing to build is an absolutely disgusting display of cantankerous anti-Americanism and radical Islamic supremacy. And what's more, the left wing and the President himself have publicly supported it's construction. Just to set the stage, in case anybody has forgotten, September 11th 2001 was the day when Islamic terrorists hijacked and flew two planes into both towers of the World Trade Center, one other plane slammed into the Pentagon, and another crashed into a field on its way to Washington D.C. Because of the ambitions of radical Islam, roughly 3,000 American civilians died in the worst terroristic attack on U.S. soil since our country was founded. Remember now? Good. Because the following should hopefully make you feel physically ill.

The premise behind the Mosque itself could not be any more obvious. Built less than a block or so away from ground zero, it is supposed to be a building where Muslims can congregate and worship, a so-called religious center. But upon reading between the lines, it becomes clear that the project is what is known as a Victory Mosque. When an Islamic entity of any type takes over a territory in a Jihad war, the first thing they do upon claiming an important territory is erect a Mosque as a showing of their superiority. The location of the Gound Zero Mosque is a telling sign, and even more telling is the scheduled day of its opening. That would be: September 11, 2011. Ten years to the day after the radical Islamic attacks that killed 3,000 Americans.

The man behind the Mosque, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is an clear radical. Not only does he refuse to condemn terrorist groups like Al Qaeda and Hamas, he also has repeatedly claimed that the United States, or the West, is responsible for the attacks themselves. I don't care who you are, no negative interpretation or dislike for any culture is an excuse to murder 3,000 innocent people. And I don't want to see anybody twisting my words to say "well we went to war and killed Muslims because of their religion". B.S. is what I say to that, don't forget that we had a holy war declared on us. We just responded in kind. And I also don't want to hear any arguments about how Rasuf helped the F.B.I. I don't believe that for a second, as I believe the Government more than likely paid him to point the finger to anyone he felt was suspect and worth giving up. This Mosque will be built by a man who claims the 9/11 attacks were our fault, and that Osama bin Laden was "made in the U.S.A." Not only this, but he is also a proponent of Shariah law, and has advocated replacing the U.S. Constitution with it. Don't forget that Shariah law sets the guidelines for and Islamic society, such as burqas and stonings for infidelity. Highly suspect and a huge problem if you ask me.

The left wing, never ones to fail their anti-American agenda, support this Mosque with open arms. They see it as a symbol of their twisted notion of multiculturalism, instead of recognizing it for what it actually is. And of course, the left wing media has been quite considerate in calling people who oppose this project the usual terms. Racists. Anti-Muslim. Bigots. The stupid morons fail to realize that these are 9/11 widows and widowers that they are talking about. Not to mention that the "racists" and "bigots" they are so loud about oppose radical Islam, not peaceful Islam. Jerkoffs.

Obumbles, of course, spoke in glowing favor of the Victory Mosque at a dinner celebrating Ramadan, the Islamic holiday. Then the stupid idiot actually had the stones to backtrack on what he said in a later brief interview, saying instead that he only spoke about religious freedom, and not the Mosque. Another nail in his coffin, as this shows whose side he is on. Along the same lines, the ailing Harry Reid has ditched Obama's side of the political spectrum here and has spoken against the Mosque to try and save his own political butt, while Pelosi has shown her typical leftard self by saying there is a conspiracy behind the demonizing of this Mosque and she would be investigating "how they are receiving their funding". Um, yeah.

Governor Patterson was stumbling and showing his weakness when he proposed that the Mosque be moved. Instead of having a set of anything and demanding the Mosque be moved elsewhere, he simply asked the company in charge of the construction company if they would mind. Of course the answer was absolutely not. Who woulda thunk? I even wouldn't have a problem with them using taxpayer funds to establish another piece of land in Manhatten, far from Ground Zero, to build the Mosque. But of course, the company won't go for any deals. They support radical Islam.

This is not about religion. This is not about freedom of religion. I'm not saying that Muslims should not be allowed to worship. I'm saying they should have the damn consideration to not erect a Victory Mosque mere feet away from where 3,000 American lives were ended by radical Islam. The left, Rasuf, Obama, and the mainstream news media are going to be in a serious amount of trouble over this. Not when they're supporting a Mosque over 70% of the nation opposes. The other 30% needs to get their heads out of the sand.

That's all from me. I won't reply anymore to this topic, as my points have been made clear and my feelings known.

[Phil]

I've been interested in mentioning this but I haven't really had the words to express how I feel. I even wanted to make a YouTube video of it but the same thing happened I really haven't been able to express myself the way I have wanted to. I have to tell you this is a good articulate post Jersey Life.

I have not been able to sum my thoughts up this well but after reading this I have to say I would not have expressed myself any different from how Jersey Life feels about this.

In recap its find that Muslims have their beliefs but in light of what happened I can't see a Mosque being build there as anything other than spoiling for a fight.

When the planes hit the towers and it was all over the news and in the papers I had to try to explain that to a 4 year old. That's not so easy to explain to a small child when his 30 year old father can't fully grasp the reasons behind it either.

That September day tourists, business people and airline passengers going about their business end up being killed in such a savage way.

[Kimm]

Im sick about that too. I believe in freedom of Religion but there is a factor. Thats rather confrontational to build that close after what happened. If it was a Mosque but not involving members of Islamic backgrounds that had already spoken out against the American way it would not bother me as much.

[Bartleby, the Scrivener]

www.aclu.org/free-speech-religion-belief/aclu-and-nyclu-statement-controversy-over-new-york-city-islamic-center

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Blastgirl]

That's classic ACLU. This is something I already had a feeling about but if I don't about something I know that most of the time if the ACLU likes it its bad if they don't like it its good.

Not always but usually. The ACLU is suddenly worried about Religious freedom? Had it been any other situation they would be saying that Church and State has to be separate. I am not saying that this debate has any role with Church and State but ACLU Likes to make it that when they don't agree but since they're for this the Country is founded on Religious Freedom.

[Demona]

I think the area should be made into a park. End of story. Everyone can b*tch that they didn't get their way then, but at least something good will come out of if that I'm sure most people wouldn't be offended by. What Jersey said did make sense and the idea of it sounded fishy from the start by the way.

[thunderbird]

How can anybody think that's not going to get bad reaction?

After Pearl Harbor Japanese American families were put in custody just in case they were involved. That might not have been so right either but it was a practical approach.

There's lot of of concern, some of it, legitimate that the Taliban and al-Qaeda or whoever else opposes the American way could do more damage from the inside than by bombing us or attempting a war in the conventional way.

Instead the idea would be to damage the system inside in a way causing cancer to the country until it falls within.

That was the fear as to the reason that Japanese Americans were apprehended during the war.
Some other people suggested doing the same with Arabic Americans after the towers fell. I don't think that would have been a good thing. But I can understand that school of thought. Some said deport all that are in the country even if they are professors or doctors move them all out. Again I would not have done that.


I spend some time in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait during the original war with Iraq. I was in the Army. I did not see much combat but I saw some. There are many restrictions on middle eastern cultures. They believe eventually everybody comes to Islam-ism. Judaism, Christianity perhaps even atheism would eventually come to them.

They see the American way with so much cultural freedom as opposing that chance. Even democratized nations in that chapter of the world are less free than westernized nations. That enables a hold of power and social demands.

[Demona]

Aug 22, 2010 14:58:41 GMT -5 thunderbird said:

How can anybody think that's not going to get bad reaction?

After Pearl Harbor Japanese American families were put in custody just in case they were involved. That might not have been so right either but it was a practical approach.

There's lot of of concern, some of it, legitimate that the Taliban and al-Qaeda or whoever else opposes the American way could do more damage from the inside than by bombing us or attempting a war in the conventional way.

Instead the idea would be to damage the system inside in a way causing cancer to the country until it falls within.

That was the fear as to the reason that Japanese Americans were apprehended during the war.
Some other people suggested doing the same with Arabic Americans after the towers fell. I don't think that would have been a good thing. But I can understand that school of thought. Some said deport all that are in the country even if they are professors or doctors move them all out. Again I would not have done that.


I spend some time in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait during the original war with Iraq. I was in the Army. I did not see much combat but I saw some. There are many restrictions on middle eastern cultures. They believe eventually everybody comes to Islam-ism. Judaism, Christianity perhaps even atheism would eventually come to them.

They see the American way with so much cultural freedom as opposing that chance. Even democratized nations in that chapter of the world are less free than westernized nations. That enables a hold of power and social demands.

So what about Ground Zero?
If I had a say I'd construct 2 towers with the exact blue prints established in 1972 and put them back as if they had never been hit with a museum in the first floor to honor September 11, 2001. I think anything less is a big loss to our way of life.

I can still understand a park or dedication of the land where the towers stood.

A mosque that close to ground zero despicable.

Do you think in 1950 Japanese Americans could have placed a Buddhist temple on an island within Pearl Harbor? And would President Truman have given his blessing to it?

Their religion itself isn't bad, terrorists and a$$holes who take it way out of context are bad. Quite a few of those middle eastern people moved here to leave their crappy countries because they don't agree with the crazy and wrong ideas. Treating them all as guilty and making them all prisoners wouldn't solve things, just lead to even more bad feelings and turn more of them against us. Possibly ones who were decent people beforehand. You know what I mean?

Even before this topic was made and Jersey said that, it sounded like a "Ha! In your face!" type thing for wanting a mosque there. If the reason hadn't been, the terrorists and their supporters would have still felt that way.

Putting the same buildings back up to prove a counter point to it is inviting trouble, just like putting a mosque there would be inviting trouble. That's why I say some kind of memorial park would be best.

[Bartleby, the Scrivener]

I should also mention that it's not even a mosque. It's an Islamic YMCA if you will.

[Jersey]

Aug 22, 2010 21:05:38 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

Jersey, you mentioned that support of this Muslim Community center is un-American. Yet by supporting its construction, aren't I, and many others are backing the arguably most American right of all?
The First Amendment.
So doesn't that make you the un-American?

You have contributed nothing to this forum over the years. It's about time someone said it to you. You are nothing but a know-nothing know-it-all that delights in baiting other forum members in order to garner a negative reaction. You get off on it. That's all you've ever done since you've joined. This is the reason why I said I would stay out of the discussion from the point of the original post. I knew that either you or some other member would bait me to come out and respond, then get off on my "long winded" response on how stupid you are. Looks like it's you that wins the wait. Congrats. I've been itching for this.

Your post supporting the ACLU and the Mosque means you think not a second thought about spitting in the face of any and all 9/11 families and widows, which is exactly the motivation behind the construction of this Islamic center that includes the Mosque, a high priority gathering place that terrorists are extremely likely to convene and celebrate their victory over the American infidels.

You're truly garbage for that, whether you're doing it to be a forum douche or not. And to call me, the one who is actually standing up for those families from this radical Islam slap in the face, the un-American, shows just how much of real life you need to experience before you start pointing the finger and name calling on someone who *might* have a better understanding and interpretation of what's going on.

Conservatives and Christian Americans have been suffering for years under the type of oppression from the ACLU, liberals, and unions that you obviously support. What about the college professor that lost his job and tenure, all because he happened to speak in favor of Christian values and against abortion? He lost his job with absolutely no questions asked, where there have been many documented examples of liberal teachers molesting their students, yet only suffering a suspension pending trial with full PAY and BENEFITS. And, in some cases, there have been some teachers jailed for various crimes but STILL receive a monthly paycheck of taxpayer funds from their union. Any conservative or christian doing this would and HAVE lost everything, unlike the liberal elite's own crowd.

Double standard? I seriously doubt that an upstanding liberal like you would jump to that Professor's support. Nope, religious oppression only matters if and when it is or is supposedly happening to any other religion (ESPECIALLY Islam) in the name of political correctness. Your views, your infectious and degrading political correctness, tyranny with manners, is what has slowly erroded and destroyed the spiritual integrity of this country. Nobody can say anything against anybody's precious religion, whether its actually oppression or God damn the right thing to do. Nobody can do what's right anymore!

The right thing to do? Build the fricking Mosque anywhere else but there! But no, people like you have to make sure that their supposed "right" to spit in and slap the faces of the 9/11 victims and families is preserved. You are truly the scum of America. You'll learn how wrong you are one of these days.

Why am I attacking you? Because I don't care anymore. I just don't. A few months ago I was directly told by another member that I deserved to murder and maim my own family due to a conservative belief that I had considering firearms. Ever since then, my views of people like you have done nothing but traveled further downhill, with your disgusting political correctness that has erroded the values and spirit of this country, your liberal viewpoints that seek to take away all freedoms and do away with all opinions that are not in line with your left wing ones, your emasculating smugness when baiting other members to evoke a reaction so you can giggle with glee.

I'm fully aware that I just elevated a level two (in harshness) debate and agreement between a few politically minded members to a level ten flamewar between you and I. And I don't even care anymore. My participation on this forum has been sparse because I'm sick of members like you. Congrats to the administrators for being smooth and keeping the peace around here to a decent level. So I suppose I better apologize to Classic here, publicly, because I know it won't be long before you and your forum friends round on me and start with your own personal attacks.

I can only say, I'm glad I struck the hardest. And anything that is said to me from your gallery will fall on deaf ears. Because it doesn't matter to me anymore.

[Demona]

You tell him, Jersey! He's just doing what he does best. Don't avoid discussions because of that. Some people I'm afraid will never grow up.

[Classicblast]

I have had it up to my forehead with this whole thing and how governmental leaders are not more forceful against this. Freedom of religion? And it has to go right there? A year or more ago Classicblast would have held somewhat back because one never knows when they take too much of a stand on something when they're in violation of their players' union or their team of employment.

Obviously I am not within that elk any longer and Jeff of America is furious about this whole going on.


The ACLU is nothing but an organization who takes troublemaker stands on just about everything and now this.

The ACLU wanted to remove the "under God" portion of the pledge to the flag, and remove "in God we trust" on dollar bills and coins--but now they're worried about religious freedom.

Obviously they're not interested in religious freedom they're interested in rebel rousing that's what they're all about.

Obviously there's a few Americans who think President Obama may be a Muslim. I don't know that about him he claims not but if he is, he should have told us that when he ran its easier to know what you're electing.

I would really hate to get off topic by aiming this toward an ACLU issue.

I played a game 2 years ago on the anniversary of a bus accident that had happened in 1988 they has a prayer group vigil before the game members of the ACLU protested it saying that not all of the passengers of the bus were Christian. The vigil was well done and co celebrated by a Catholic priest and a Baptist Reverend. In case they didn't know they prayed for everybody's memory and hope for immortal soul not just the Christians.

Now they're putting up a Mosque near ground zero and the ACLU reminds us that our country was founded upon religious freedom. I'm glad they finally remembered that at least.

[Demona]

Freedom of religion these days means only "some" religions apparently. It's like the mainsream is being ganged up on.

It's been years since high school and government class, but I remember reading something called "majority rule, minority rights." Everyone should be respectful of eachother of course, but I guess it's in some people's nature to not be. It's fine to disagree, but why should that ruin it for the rest of the group?

I agree with what you said about that prayer vigil story. It's idiotic to get offended over that. I don't know much about the ACLU, but changing their stand on things like that just looks like it's for the sake of being disagreeable.

[Bartleby, the Scrivener]

Aug 22, 2010 23:15:54 GMT -5 Jersey said:

Aug 22, 2010 21:05:38 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

Jersey, you mentioned that support of this Muslim Community center is un-American. Yet by supporting its construction, aren't I, and many others are backing the arguably most American right of all?
The First Amendment.
So doesn't that make you the un-American?

You have contributed nothing to this forum over the years. It's about time someone said it to you. You are nothing but a know-nothing know-it-all that delights in baiting other forum members in order to garner a negative reaction. You get off on it. That's all you've ever done since you've joined. This is the reason why I said I would stay out of the discussion from the point of the original post. I knew that either you or some other member would bait me to come out and respond, then get off on my "long winded" response on how stupid you are. Looks like it's you that wins the wait. Congrats. I've been itching for this.

Your post supporting the ACLU and the Mosque means you think not a second thought about spitting in the face of any and all 9/11 families and widows, which is exactly the motivation behind the construction of this Islamic center that includes the Mosque, a high priority gathering place that terrorists are extremely likely to convene and celebrate their victory over the American infidels.

You're truly garbage for that, whether you're doing it to be a forum douche or not. And to call me, the one who is actually standing up for those families from this radical Islam slap in the face, the un-American, shows just how much of real life you need to experience before you start pointing the finger and name calling on someone who *might* have a better understanding and interpretation of what's going on.

Conservatives and Christian Americans have been suffering for years under the type of oppression from the ACLU, liberals, and unions that you obviously support. What about the college professor that lost his job and tenure, all because he happened to speak in favor of Christian values and against abortion? He lost his job with absolutely no questions asked, where there have been many documented examples of liberal teachers molesting their students, yet only suffering a suspension pending trial with full PAY and BENEFITS. And, in some cases, there have been some teachers jailed for various crimes but STILL receive a monthly paycheck of taxpayer funds from their union. Any conservative or christian doing this would and HAVE lost everything, unlike the liberal elite's own crowd.

Double standard? I seriously doubt that an upstanding liberal like you would jump to that Professor's support. Nope, religious oppression only matters if and when it is or is supposedly happening to any other religion (ESPECIALLY Islam) in the name of political correctness. Your views, your infectious and degrading political correctness, tyranny with manners, is what has slowly erroded and destroyed the spiritual integrity of this country. Nobody can say anything against anybody's precious religion, whether its actually oppression or God damn the right thing to do. Nobody can do what's right anymore!

The right thing to do? Build the fricking Mosque anywhere else but there! But no, people like you have to make sure that their supposed "right" to spit in and slap the faces of the 9/11 victims and families is preserved. You are truly the scum of America. You'll learn how wrong you are one of these days.

Why am I attacking you? Because I don't care anymore. I just don't. A few months ago I was directly told by another member that I deserved to murder and maim my own family due to a conservative belief that I had considering firearms. Ever since then, my views of people like you have done nothing but traveled further downhill, with your disgusting political correctness that has erroded the values and spirit of this country, your liberal viewpoints that seek to take away all freedoms and do away with all opinions that are not in line with your left wing ones, your emasculating smugness when baiting other members to evoke a reaction so you can giggle with glee.

I'm fully aware that I just elevated a level two (in harshness) debate and agreement between a few politically minded members to a level ten flamewar between you and I. And I don't even care anymore. My participation on this forum has been sparse because I'm sick of members like you. Congrats to the administrators for being smooth and keeping the peace around here to a decent level. So I suppose I better apologize to Classic here, publicly, because I know it won't be long before you and your forum friends round on me and start with your own personal attacks.

I can only say, I'm glad I struck the hardest. And anything that is said to me from your gallery will fall on deaf ears. Because it doesn't matter to me anymore.

Nowhere did I say I support the "mosque"

I do support their right to build it.

[Jersey]

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

It looks like I have misspoke, I support their right TO BUILD the "mosque", but I feel that by building it they are just looking for trouble because trigger happy idiots will do something completely irrational. It is just stupid of them to think they could do this w/o any repercussion. As they as Americans have 1st Amendment Rights just like you and me. You accuse me of taking away personal freedoms yet I am standing up for the people whose freedoms you wish to take away.

Believe it or not, I support their right to build the Mosque or "Islamic center" too. But along with 70% of America, I do not want it that close to Ground Zero. It's disrespectful. It spits in the eye of 9/11 widows and families that lost loved ones in the attacks. As someone who has very clear memories of what happened that day, I remember what they went through and realize their perspective on what these groups are trying to do. It may be a gathering center, but it INCLUDES a Mosque, an inclusion that I feel is supposed to be a hidden Victory Mosque. The fact that it's included, the location of the structure, their refusal to move elsewhere, and the political statements of the man behind it, all point towards (to me and many others) this Mosque being a monument and tribute to the terrorists that died in the name of Islam (radical or not) on that day nearly nine years ago.

I have to agree with you 100% that there will be repercussions once this thing is built. Some people are incredibly stupid, and you've actually opened a new perspective. What if these groups are building this Mosque on purpose in order to incite a harsh response, giving them the excuses they need to further unite and attack America all over again? It's an ironclad plan. Radical Islamic groups have already begun with new threats on New York city in response to the protests against this project, as well as new ones threatening suicide bombings in Florida. They are definitely looking for an excuse to continue their Jihad, and this Mosque might just be their answer. I don't doubt that somewhere, someone is already planning to either deface the building once it opens or worse, burns it to the ground. I think they're counting on this.

Once again, you say I'm trying to destroy or take away a 1st Amendment right. You are wrong. I'm trying to say that they should have the decency to respect the memory of the 3,000 Americans that died that day, and yet they refuse to show it. Your earlier point about them possibly doing this to incite a negative response makes a lot of sense. They know that Americans are not going to go for this and so far they haven't. Am I saying that we should tolerate it? Nope. Should we burn it to the ground? Now way. That will give the terrorist entities further reason to kill Americans, and a burned or defaced Mosque will offend ALL Muslims, regardless of how moderate they are. So the only solution is to somehow find a way to get them to move it somewhere else. They still get their Islamic Center, and the memory of 9/11 isn't spit on.

Taking away freedom of speech is one thing. Asking them to move it, making them move it, but not disallowing them from constructing it, are two different things. Americans that oppose this Mosque, including me, aren't saying that the shouldn't be allowed to build. Just build it elsewhere! Keep the hallowed ground that is Ground Zero respected! That's all we want.

And in further response to calling me un-American earlier, let me just say this. There is nothing more American, especially these days, in making sure that someone doesn't get their feelings hurt. This is one of the few times that I want the ACLU to consider the feelings of someone, the 9/11 families, and at least make the effort to get these groups to build the Mosque elsewhere. The ACLU hasn't had a problem doing that with other religious or political groups thus far, so it would be nice to see them do it for a decent cause for a change.

\quote author=kevination board=Presidential thread=1799 post=46774 time=1282544658]
You continue to attack me with out evidence. I do not support unions for example. And are you just throwing out random a hypothetical? Can you show me a link to the story of this professor, please? I'm sure I would support him, though you blindly accuse me of things again, but I digress.
[/quote]

I'm not blindingly accusing you. It's called drawing a parallel. Your support of this Mosque in your two earlier postings indicated to me that you supported its building near Ground Zero. You didn't make it clear that you supported only its building, and instead made it look like people opposed to it were opposing religious freedom. That's why I hammered you so hard.

The parallel I drew was a case where a heterosexual male Christian Pofessor made the mistake of talking to his class about a certain part of his Christian beliefs; his non-support of homosexuality. He did it in much the same way that hundreds of Professors inject their own political ideologies into lectures every day.

But instead of getting the disgusted looks that liberal Professors (and I've personally been in classrooms when they've done it) get from conservatives when they spout off in favor of Communism, Socialism, gay marriage, their political candidate, etc, this guy lost his job. Liberals refuse to jump to his defense because even though he executed his 1st Amendment right to oppose homosexuality and speak out about it, he lost his job! That, to me, is religious suppression. Now I ask, is it ok that liberal Professors can crap all over Christianity and force their own beliefs down the throats of students without so much as a reprimand, but this guy happens to go against the grain and what do you know, he's punished for it?

I'm trying to make you think. Here's the link you asked for.
www.prophecynewswatch.com/2010/July14/1483.html

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

I am not going to personally attack you, unless you consider the above paragraph an attack. I was merely stating my beliefs. I am not giggling with glee, (again with the assumptions I mean come on) for some reason every time someone opposes you freak out and go off on tirades and call them a troll. Is it such a shock that someone could have a different view point than you?

Opposing viewpoints are what make debates a great thing to have. It was when you called me un-American that pissed me off. I wouldn't even get that pissed off if you called me an idiot. But love of my country and its values is something that I stick with very hard, and anyone that challenges that, attacks it, or says anything against it is going to see it defended. I defend my values fully.

I don't have a problem with opposing viewpoints. It's only when mine are attacked that I defend them like that. You call it freaking out, I call it defense of ones morals upon attack. That's why I do what I do; lay it on the line and stand behind what you believe. That, at minimum, makes me at least clear in that I stand behind what I believe in instead of flip flopping between two opposing arguments.

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

You probably won't read this as I see your going with argument tactic of "LALALALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALA" but I hope that you do read this.

Liberals do that. I only said that any personal attacks, which you refrained from doing, would not be taken to heart and responded to. That's why you're getting a clarifying response rather than a grilling like before.

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

You do not know me at all, and I don't wish to change that personally, but I am upset that you go out of your way to make personal attacks about my caring of the 9/11 victims. My family came very close to losing someone that day, and it just sickens me to here you say that. Though I really could care less what you think of me.

Just as it sickened me to see (what I saw at the time) you supporting the construction of the Mosque right next to Ground Zero. Until you clarified, that's all I had to go on. Thus the response you got. I won't apologize for what I said, but it's a good thing you clarified. You at least have an understanding of where I'm coming from in regards to the insensitivity being executed against 9/11 families.

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

About the maiming, that wasn't me, why even bring that up, I could give a shit what Slayer says, I didn't have anything to do with that.

That wasn't directed at you. It was a statement explaining the reasoning behindwhy I was being so aggressive, and why any political debate I get involved in become no holds barred once I'm attacked. That attack on me back then changed the way I debate, and because of that I no longer beat around the bush when I feel I've been given a problem.

Aug 23, 2010 1:24:18 GMT -5 Bartleby, the Scrivener said:

It is isn't a mosque. A mosque would require that there be nothing but a mosque there if that makes sense. They plan to have a basketball court among other things, so the whole victory mosque argument is just bogus because well, it is not a mosque.

You might think the argument is bogus, but the center includes a Mosque. Built to honor the terrorists, and now, possibly for Islamic radical groups to incite a negative reaction from Americans in order to further Jihadist goals and carry out further attacks. Our leadership is ridiculously weak, Obama an empty suit that bows to other nations (literally), and a Congress full of liberals that are completely out of touch with the American people. Our weakness in leadership is showing in the behavior of other countries, like Chinese aspirations to further control the world economy, Iran going nuclear and potentially developing nuclear weapons, North Korea doing the same. Terrorists and radical Islam in general sees it too. Because the government doesn't have the guts to make them construct their Mosque elsewhere and keep Ground Zero hallowed ground, the terrorists are counting on Americans to respond in a way that will completely tear down American-Islamic relations, start a race war, and give them the opening they need to attack America and kill more innocent people.

This is my take on it. And it's ok if you disagree with me. That's what I don't care about. The response you got was because you called me un-American, and your posts earlier appeared to support the building of the Ground Zero Mosque near Ground Zero.

I don't hold back anymore in an argument. You just happened to be the first to experience it.

[Phil]

Sometimes members here lurk and don't get involved in the discussion unless there's a subject that is controversial. Possum you are 1 of those people. You already know that myself, Jersey, Classic, blastgirl, Kimm, probably all of the blast family, and mahnarch did not vote for Obama. There's at least 4 members who did and are democrat leaning and there's no hostility or anger of any kind.

The fact that there's going to be a basketball court and some other parts doesn't console me. Most churches have a banquet hall, a gym and a school attached I am not surprised a mosque would too.

The Ku Klux Klan has a history far worse than what they do now but they still perform acts of violence, they sometimes kill even more often harass blacks, Jewish, Muslim, gay, and other groups. They perceive themselves as good southern Christians. Yet they perform acts of violence against groups for no reason other than they don't share their views.

Suppose a Louis Farrakhan million man march was ambushed by the Ku Klux Klan.

Then a few years later on 1 of the streets where the march took place they wanted to build a community center would you see that as something good because there's going to be a bingo hall and a basketball court, and everybody can come and use it for those functions not just Klan members? I put that in because I'm sure the mosque community center will have openings for everybody.

David Duke was not embraced in his bid for President because he was a past KKK grand dragon. He claimed he had learned of his past wrong and no longer has those feelings.

I liked what thunderbird said about a Buddhist temple hear Pearl Harbor just a few years after the attack.

[Jersey]

A few quotes from an excellent article by Charles Krauthammer that was posted on Friday that I haven't seen before regarding the Mosque.

"No one disputes the right to build; the whole debate is about the propriety, the decency of doing so."

"...consider whether the imam's alleged goal of interfaith understanding might not be better achieved by accepting the New York governor's offer to help find another site."

"At least Richard Cohen of The Post tries to grapple with the issue of sanctity and sensitivity. The results, however, are not pretty. He concedes that putting up a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor would be offensive but then dismisses the analogy to Ground Zero because 9/11 was merely 'a rogue act, committed by 20 or so crazed samurai.' "

"Ground Zero is the site of the most lethal attack of that worldwide movement, which consists entirely of Muslims, acts in the name of Islam and is deeply embedded within the Islamic world. These are regrettable facts, but facts they are. And that is why putting up a monument to Islam in this place is not just insensitive but provocative."

He preceded this last one by saying that 7% of worldwide muslims, about 80 million of them, identify with and act in the name of radical Islam.

I swear on my life I haven't seen this article before. I think its pretty cool that Mr. Krauthammer expresses his views in much the same way I did.

[Classicblast]

Brother Thunderbird used the same analogy as Charles Krauthammer of the Japanese cultural center he said a Buddhist temple but its the same idea.