Commandhat
Full Member
Just add Active-ness!
Posts: 138
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Post by Commandhat on Mar 3, 2006 13:27:51 GMT -5
just HAD to put this back . after all, what would Lewasite be without a religion fight/discussion???
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Post by Phil on Mar 3, 2006 14:06:58 GMT -5
I don't see what that has to do with religion.
I'm not at the moment forgiving about what happend if that has a religious point.
Making him mad would in no way justify what took place the other day.
What I am pleased to see is the forum is growing new topics and members are beginning to discuss.
And TMTD has revealed his true colors to us all and anyone who had doubts now knows that it was not Classic that made the trouble it was TMTD the whole time.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 3, 2006 20:20:53 GMT -5
mister_nothing, the board deletions have nothing to do with religion. Please stay on topic.
Also, Phil, just because everyone knows that someone made a very bad decision recently doesn't mean that the perpetrator continually made bad decisions in the past. Evaluate certain actions for what they are, not by the maliciousness or nobility of other actions.
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Post by skier1 on Mar 4, 2006 12:50:07 GMT -5
N_C, starting a religious thread to trash TMTD makes no sense at all. This should really just be for discussing of religion, nothing more.
With this in mind, I suggest we not start the Creationism v. Evolution debate back up again. How about taking current events and looking at them in a eligious context, since converting someone over the internet is about as futile as trying to chop down the mightiest tree in the forest... with a herring! Dunnnnn...
Umm, yeah. So how about those cartoons depicting Muhammed?
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Commandhat
Full Member
Just add Active-ness!
Posts: 138
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Post by Commandhat on Mar 4, 2006 14:06:34 GMT -5
sorry about that. I modified the post to get rid of the non-Religion stuff.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 28, 2006 20:01:39 GMT -5
Well, I just finished reading The Case for Faith, authored by Lee Strobel with the help of numerous religious experts. It was quite a good read, and I've learned a lot. Basically, the book took the eight toughest objections to Christianity and attempted to justify or explain them.
Though well-written, interesting, and certainly pro-Christian, I haven't changed my views from reading it. Though it has given me some insight into areas I wasn't completely educated on before, and therefore somewhat weakened my strongest objection, I've actually gained a new reason or two not to accept Christianity as my faith from reading the book.
Proving Christianity's credibility is much easier than proving its moral wellness.
I'd be willing to discuss this specifically if anyone wants, but if not, I'd rather not waste my time.
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Post by sasukeandnarutorock on Mar 28, 2006 20:07:55 GMT -5
I have requested Rare Earth: Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe, a book on rare earth hypothesis at the local library. Not exactly a lot to do with religion, but with why other intelligient life is most likely a h elluva lot of light years away from us.
I don't really see how anyone can believe in these religions. We're all just animals; we've amazingly evolved into incredibly advanced life forms. We have the same amount of a point in life as that of another animal such as a lion or a lizard. We have our instincts: to pass on our genes. Some people are astonished how other people can go on living without a point in life, as I do. What can I say; I don't blame them.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 28, 2006 20:44:05 GMT -5
You're right, bro_c. From a purely external perspective, humans appear to have no need or reason for religion. In other words, by just looking at what humans are physically, there isn't much evidence to tell us that there is some greater meaning to life.
Religion is all about how people feel, and, to a lesser extent, whether or not evidence exists to support the validity of those feelings. The strange thing is, so many people have so many different feelings relating to religion. Some have a natural attraction to the idea of a god, while others try hard to refute any evidence for religious ideas. Personally, I've never been attracted to Christianity. I only told myself that I accepted it once because I thought it was "safe." Soon, however, when I discovered that some of its aspects were, at least to me, morally wrong, I abandoned safety in favor of morality. I chose not to accept or support Christian beliefs.
Some people are astonished how other people can go on living without a point in life, as I do.
What can I say; I don't blame them.
That's an interesting message. I understand why some are amazed at others' lives that are, according to those living them, meaningless. A meaning implies progress and lack of waste. Certainly life is the one thing that no one wants to be wasted or in the absence of progress.
I think there is meaning to life: the meaning you give it. I've summed up my life's meaning in one word, which happens to be my favorite word: awesomeness. I've committed myself to honoring the great people in my life by showing their admirable qualities in my actions, learning about all that I consider important so I can use my mind to benefit myself and others, making a positive and lasting impression on the people I care about, and acknowledging my faults in order to better myself. This is, of course, something I've committed myself to; like Christianity, that doesn't mean I'll be perfect with it. If I try my best, enjoy life, and can look back on the big picture of what I've done and honestly be proud of myself, I'll be happy.
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Post by mattis on Mar 29, 2006 21:16:26 GMT -5
I'm amazed people can live with a purpose. I think living with a purpose would be very scary. there would be a lot of pressure on you to fulfill you're role in life. in bad times I can take comfort in the fact that nothing really matters in the end.
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Post by Nog64 on Mar 30, 2006 22:14:42 GMT -5
Catholics FTW. Anyway, living life without a purpose actually seems very bleak and dreary to me. I can say that even if this life sucks, I know that there's better yet after I die. A world without heaven would suck, seeing as how bad this world is.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 30, 2006 23:53:40 GMT -5
I never knew there were such conflicting views on purpose. Perhaps, like God, it is a necessity for some, while at the same time a nightmare for others.
I can take comfort in the fact that nothing really matters in the end. -mattis
I didn't appreciate the significance of how much those words mean until just now.
I agree, mattis; knowing (or believing) that nothing will ever matter is comforting. In other words, no matter how much you screw up, you really can't screw up anything divinely important.
While lack of purpose is comforting, I think it misses out on some other important aspects of belief in terms of purpose. I believe it misses out on genuine happiness. I agree that I would feel comfortable if I knew I didn't have any purpose at all, but I wouldn't feel genuinely happy. This isn't to say that you can't be genuinely happy while not having a purpose; you can. I'm merely saying that, at least to me, I can find genuine happiness just by remembering my self-assigned purpose (if I didn't have a purpose, I could find genuine happiness in other aspects of life, probably those that I find genuine happiness in now).
I can say that even if this life sucks, I know that there's better yet after I die. A world without heaven would suck, seeing as how bad this world is. -nog64
I love this life. My idea of Heaven is my life as I'm living it right now, with a few very slight modifications. I realize that many other peoples' lives suck, and that's too unfortunate for words to describe. I feel so lucky to be who I am; if I could be anyone else in the world right now, I'd still be who I am. Because of this, I feel obligated to at least try to make things better for others. I should be viewed, among other views, as a representation of an immeasurable amount of work, time, and commitment from so many people that I know. I'm lucky. To me, every view of Heaven or Hell that I've heard is much worse than my life now. Maybe that's one reason why I'm resistant to religion.
Also, religion is not required to have purpose. This seems like a common misconception, which is surprising to me.
And for one last point:
-The concept of prayer is morally flawed. If anyone wants to discuss, feel free.
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Post by Blastgirl on Mar 31, 2006 1:36:06 GMT -5
I think it depends on what your concept of prayer is and what you expect.
Most recently I spend some time in prayer that somehow Classic would land a position with a baseball team and that we could somehow have that happen and not have to move.
A sports career is short lived enough, but with him playing in the minors his age is even more of an issue. being thirty-one in the minors is probably the same as being thirty-eight in the Majors.
Well I wanted at least one more contract for my Husband. That was most important even if it did mean moving. But I prayed to somehow arange us to stay here.
Classic got signed and he has some travel time but with the difference being eighty five miles we decided to stay.
That seems like answered prayers.
I guess this could be rebutted by saying that Classic's new team was a competitive rival and they already knew about him and he hit well enough in their triouts that he landed a job and that could have happend without prayers but I feel they help.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 31, 2006 3:01:59 GMT -5
That's an interesting story, Blastgirl. Before you read the rest of my post, please know that I am happy for you and Classicblast, as well as anyone who benefits (whether because of prayer or not). Now, to my thoughts:
-Basically, prayer is a thought/hope/request shared between a person (or sometimes a group of people) and God. The person lets God know their thoughts, feelings, and needs. The idea is that if you pray to God, He will help you, or perhaps answer your prayer. In other words, generally, you have a greater chance of something happening that you really need to happen if you pray for it.
-An essential, unchanging belief of Christianity is that God is good and perfect in all that He does, whether it seems that way to humans or not. God always makes the (morally) right decisions. You must believe this if you are a Christian.
-Only God hears every prayer, and only God chooses to answer a prayer or not.
-Since all of God's actions are perfect, we know that in everything God directly does, there is no better decision, and no better way to do it. God never leaves any room for improvement in what he does.
With those basic, common beliefs in mind, I will now explain why prayer is a flawed concept.
Since God is omniscient and leaves no room for improvement in what he does, he must know the right decision for every situation and make the right decision for every situation. You could think of this as a "prearranged plan" for reality.
Now, what is the point of prayer again? People pray in the hopes that God will hear them, help them, and specifically answer requests. But wait a second... something's wrong. God knows the right decision, makes the right decision, and leaves no room for improvement in how He makes the decision... so prayer is pointless. Whether you pray or not, what God will do is what God is going to do, according to Christian beliefs.
And if God does, somehow, alter his decisions based off the prayers of His people, I only have more reason to believe He is despicable. The right decision is the right decision, whether or not it is requested. Now that I think about it, a lot of "common" prayers are quite absurd. Whenever people ask God to "bless" food, do they think he wouldn't "bless" it if they didn't pray? If that is true, then God is quite oppressive toward his people. If not, asking God to bless food has no purpose; in fact, I think all those requests would probably annoy God after while.
I think that the more personal the prayer is, the more repugnant the outcome (assuming Christianity is true). If I asked God to "be with" my grandmother as she was dying, God knows the right decision (I'm not saying that "being with her" is the right decision; simply, God knows the right decision, whatever it is). If God decided to "be with" her only because I asked for it, I don't want to have anything to do with God. Third-party requests don't change what decision should be made.
So, the great dilemma is this: either the great majority of prayer is morally wrong on God's behalf, or it is pointless on the Christians' behalf.
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Post by Phil on Mar 31, 2006 15:43:45 GMT -5
Allright Sizz, that's a pretty good objective observation.
And you have a lot of good observations within a larger 1.
For starters you're right saying a prayer that God be with your gandmother.
I gather that you are saying that the prayer should not be needed because if the Christian God if real and is everything Christianity believes then God is already with grandma. -That's true-
The human emotions of the beleiver might need to ask God for help and then hope for results. Sometimes the answer is no. And we as humans don't always know why. That's just the way it is.
Not everytning is easilly explained just as even religious people don't believe that everything good is God and everything bad is Satan life is just not that simple.
We could take Blastgirl's story in another scenario.
Maybe Classic goes to springtraining. And the blasts pray for him to get another season with that team.
Maybe he gets released anyway.
what did happen is another team not too far away took him and he's back in the league.
Suppose that didn't happen.
Does that mean God didn't listen? Maybe not.
Maybe the career of a unstructured talented player would never get started without the guidence of a stable mentor. And that players team hires Classic to be that mentor and that guy's career is saved.
There's a ton of other possibilities, as believers God might have had a long term plan that is not so black and white obvious to us all right then and there.
I'd like to get off that damned overnight shift at the railroad. The only good thing about it is I have Fridays off. Otherwise its aweful.
I wanted desperately to get a shift change 18 months ago.
Something is going on right now though. I will likely get a shift change and a higher position due to some retireing people.
Had I gotten the shift change 18 months ago I would have been locked into a position where I would not be eledgeable for an opportunity that is forthcoming.
If this happens and I am the front runner right now, I would end up foreman of a crew that will have almost all inside jobs and just supervise the crews that would do the outside work. Hours will vary instead of straigt up overnights, and a huge pay increase. So like Garth Brooks said in a song 1 time 'sometimes I thank God for unasnwered prayers.'
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Post by Captain Awesome on Mar 31, 2006 18:27:08 GMT -5
My two cents: Sizzle, you must understand that not everyone (hardly anyone) is as overwhelmingly analytical or morally focused as you. Sure, they want to be nice and do the right thing, but personal happiness and emotional well-being are major factors in people's religious choices.
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Post by Sizzlepop on Mar 31, 2006 18:55:17 GMT -5
Good posts, Phil and littleguy29.
The human emotions of the believer might need to ask God for help and then hope for results. Sometimes the answer is no. And we as humans don't always know why. That's just the way it is. -Phil
In other words, whether the concept of prayer is perfect or not, many humans will continue to pray because it helps them emotionally. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Remember, when I say I don't like the idea of prayer, it's not because of the people who pray; it's because of what God might or might not do.
...personal happiness and emotional well-being are major factors in people's religious choices. -littleguy29
True dat. If someone is happy with their religion, that's great. Ultimately, the best reality would be a world where everyone doesn't focus on how happy they are with their religion, but how happy they should be with their religion. I suppose, since everyone is different, that won't happen. That's okay; a world where most are happy with their religion, despite whether they should be or not, isn't bad. I think the general thinking there has room for improvement, though. That's always been how I've thought of things; I focus on what should be, rather what is.
To me, whether Christianity is or is not, it should not be. And though I probably won't ever arrive at a complete explanation for the religious matters I'm interested in, I can at least know that I tried to explain them with the help of others. If I can keep an open mind, review the best opinions that differ from mine, and still legitimately defend my thinking, then even if I am wrong, no one can blame me. That's a great feeling; it gives me comfort, genuine happiness, and helps my emotional well-being, while at the same time, I feel that I should be happy with how I'm living, therefore I am.
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Post by Nog64 on Mar 31, 2006 20:29:11 GMT -5
True that. Personal philosophy is the best way to base your beliefs off of. Though if we tried to be as happy as we should, then noone would change their religion. Which may or may not be bad. Speaking of which, did you hear about the guy charged with convertung people to Christianity? I thought freedom of religion would be appearant in a U.S.-controlled area .
: It's Tricky-Run D.M.C.
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stunts
Still testing waters
Still Testing the Sewers...
Posts: 9
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Post by stunts on Mar 31, 2006 20:54:13 GMT -5
Since I've never made in a post about religion, and probably never will again, I'll put my beliefs in a nutshell.
Firstly, I'm going to come out and say it. I do not believe there is a god MERELY because of the fact that there is no proof/evidence of his/her existence and there is alot that prooves his/her's inexistence. Such as the fact that the church can simply change a rule after thousands of years of believing in that rule. I think god made that rule in mind that he/she was infalible and that a mere man cannot question him/her. Too much logic will ruin your perception of the other side of the paranormal wall.
Second, if you believe that there is a god, do not try and tell me and everyone else in the airport/street that I should believe in him/her. If they really are the god and you truly believe that he/she will save you, then live your life accordingly to your religion. Hey, if we don't believe in your god, more room in Heaven for you.
Now, allow me to move to what I believe life is like after death.
There is no heaven. There is no purgatory. There is absolutely nothing. Not endless white, nor endless black, or endless gray. Just a forever of nothing. Once your mind shuts down, you don't haunt people as a ghost or guide people as an angle, you just cease. Never to be reincarnated as another organism, just to stop existing.
While I'm on the subject of endlessness, I'm going to talk to you about infinity. Infinity is so incredibly massive, so hugely titanic, so unbelievably gargantuine, we must also be infinitely small. So small that even the largest galaxy in the universe is a mere speck of dust in the Sahara desert that is the endless infinity that is the Universe.
But then, if you apply the same rules to molecules and atoms, they must also be infinty large to the the infinity of small masses, that it's possible atoms could be made of tiny Universes in them selfs. And that we in this reletive Universe could make up those atoms to things large that the Universe, possible those same molecules and atoms I mentioned earlyer.
All that said and done, it's best just to not think about it. If our minds could grasp god or infinity, we would turn into vegitables. I just don't really want to think about what will happen to me when I die in that car crash (And I know it's coming).
Thank you.
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