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Post by Nitro God on Feb 17, 2014 6:46:10 GMT -5
Talking about this on another forum. Now no one really knows me on this forum b/c I joined when I was so young and I'm, imo, a completely different person since then. I've worked a little bit in education as well as attending education. Enough about me.
We were talking about 'Evolution' and I just want opinions for the sake of wanting opinions. Now this was a science based forum I was having this discussion on and just about everyone agreed that Evolution should be taught in the science classroom and that 'creationism/intelligent design' had no place in the science classroom. I agree with that 100 percent because Evolution is a fact and 'creationism' is just a belief (and no offence to anyone who believes it, but a silly one at that).
Not taking a poll on this but I'm making a mental note on your opinions. What do you think? Does creationism have place in the science lab? Yes/no. If yes why?
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Post by Phil on Feb 17, 2014 14:46:54 GMT -5
I think that belief in God is up to each of us. And I believe. I also think whenever there's a pending Physics test, there's prayer in the science lab regardless of whether or not the school is Catholic, private in anyway or public. I remember taking Earth Science and evolution was pretty much taught anyway at least concerning the Earth's geological makeup.
That leads to volcanic eruptions or ice glaciers changing the rock structure of the earth how mountains have moved partially or at least changed even rerouting rivers and creating or abolishing small lakes. If the river feeds a lake but volcanic action or earth quakes even rock slides have caused the river to redirect that lake ran dry eventually and the new flo of the river created other bodies of water because of this action is kind of common. That would be s=evolution. Mules can not reproduce their own they are sterile. Its a mating of a horse and donkey that's a kind of evolution too.
Those things are already taught in schools it does not eliminate the creationist beliefs.
My older son is in his junior year and my memory gets refreshed about what is taught in school.
I know Nitro that you resist the belief in the creator. For what it's worth I am 42 years old and so many of the people *not all but a lot* of the people who I knew at your age who were the most outspoken opponents of religion some 20 years ago are now are now highly religious. I don't know if some had tramatic experiences or if they just found a change of heart some other way. But I have known lots of such people.
To answer the question of the thread I think evolution is already being taught. Even 25 years after my high school graduation I am very positive it was taught them too.
And again I don't see as evolution as necessarily not believing in creation. If the purpose is to try to attempt to bring a genocidal act against creationist belief then go for the marbles. Teach it that way but also require that scripture be taught in public schools as well and you must take at least a semester of it. If you still don't believe so be it.
I am not necessarily saying scripture should be taught in public schools. What I am saying is if creation opponents want to put the game on the line so to speak then have the sand to expose your students to both ideas and let them choose rather than squash creationism altogether.
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Post by Nitro God on Feb 17, 2014 18:19:16 GMT -5
Cheers for your input Phil  |
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Post by Classicblast on Feb 18, 2014 0:57:14 GMT -5
Phil and I have discussed similar topics and both of us are Catholic men.
Even with that said I'm not sure I like the concept of putting God vs Evolution brought in as a teach them both and make it nearly a taste test. I think that is disrespectful to the Lord.
I agree that science evolves and does not necessarily disprove creationism nor do I think God specifically changes the chemical or atmospheric make up of the Earth with a plan in mind. While I do believe in God I don't know if he decided that some people need snow today and therefore it snows. If a hurricane is sent as a punishment... I am not suggesting that either.
I agree partially with both of you and not entirely with either.
Obviously I am a believer in God as I already said. I agree that when teaching religion is not done in public schools it would be just as wrong to force anti-religious views if the purpose is to convince there is no Deity involved at all. I would say that if an economics class has obligation to teach economy they have no right to sway you to believe you should be a Democrat and no right to sway you to be a Republican or any other party.
So if public schools don't have the right to sway you to believe in God, they have no right to sway you not to either.
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Post by Nitro God on Feb 18, 2014 6:30:03 GMT -5
So Classic and maybe Phil as well, I get the impression you guys do believe the theory of Evolution but your faith and background makes you sympathetic towards creationism?
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Post by Phil on Feb 18, 2014 15:35:38 GMT -5
So Classic and maybe Phil as well, I get the impression you guys do believe the theory of Evolution but your faith and background makes you sympathetic towards creationism? 'sympathetic' is probably the wrong word at least for me. I am strong in creationism but I am not sayi8ng that things haven't evolved naturally over time and with scientific or chemical or biological reaction,. In 1971 I was 20 inches tall and weighed 7 pounds. Today I am 5' 10" and weigh about 250. I tend to believe some objects evolve too. If you wait long enough and the conditions are right, coal turns into diamond. While I believe fully in God I don't think God chose that moment to change it. In 1995 when I proposed to my wife it would have been cheaper to get her a lump of coal and say 'I plan on staying with you long enough to see this turn into a diamond,' but that probably wouldn't go over very well. I do think this though. Those who are most resistant to something like spiritual belief, or are staunch to an idea refuse to even hear or see the whole story. That's why I say if the purpose of this teaching of evolution is the point teach creation too. I see what Classic is saying too that it can degrade faith to make it take a test. I think if you live your life you faith is tested all the time. Mine certainly is. But that's for another discussion. |
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Kimm
Moderator 
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Post by Kimm on Feb 18, 2014 17:11:43 GMT -5
Slowly but surely professors are trying to remove religious beliefs in students and even change our values.
That is unless you have a non traditional religion then they say theyre all about religious freedom. I dont think theytry trying to teach evolution as much as they are trying to change the routing of those who believe in creation or cement those who are unsure not to believe.
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Post by Nitro God on Feb 20, 2014 9:39:50 GMT -5
Slowly but surely professors are trying to remove religious beliefs in students and even change our values. That is unless you have a non traditional religion then they say theyre all about religious freedom. I dont think theytry trying to teach evolution as much as they are trying to change the routing of those who believe in creation or cement those who are unsure not to believe. Don't think this is the case at all. I think they're trying to teach the truth. Evolution happened, that's why we're here. It's not a theory, it's a fact. What you believe after that is fine but Evolution is arguably the greatest story ever told and it's being rejected because people are happier believing in a creator and creation story that definitely didn't happen. We are not here because of Adam and Eve. We are here because of Evolution. Maybe God is Evolution, idk but anyway I want people to be taught the truth and something evil about not giving that to students. |
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Post by Phil on Feb 20, 2014 14:55:22 GMT -5
Well, I don't like to stir the pot but that last post kind of confirms Kim's idea about attempting to crush creation. Your post several times refuses to give or grant any possibility of a creator. When you say "definitely didn't happen' 'taught the truth' that means that you feel the truth is there was never a creator.
If you meant something else please clarify but I would be doubtful that wasn't what you mean there/. I am not here to sway your belief or lack of belief how you feel is up to you as it is to each of us. I am strongly saying that evolution doesn't rival creation like so many people seem to feel that it does. However, when the presentation is like the above post, its contrary to the function of this thread. Meaning that if this course it to give at least an open mind to evolution even to the point where there may not have been a creator, telling creation believers to have an open mind, then the same totally close their mind to the creator altogether that's completely contrary.
But as you wish.
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Post by Nitro God on Feb 21, 2014 12:19:29 GMT -5
Well, I don't like to stir the pot but that last post kind of confirms Kim's idea about attempting to crush creation. Your post several times refuses to give or grant any possibility of a creator. When you say "definitely didn't happen' 'taught the truth' that means that you feel the truth is there was never a creator. If you meant something else please clarify but I would be doubtful that wasn't what you mean there/. I am not here to sway your belief or lack of belief how you feel is up to you as it is to each of us. I am strongly saying that evolution doesn't rival creation like so many people seem to feel that it does. However, when the presentation is like the above post, its contrary to the function of this thread. Meaning that if this course it to give at least an open mind to evolution even to the point where there may not have been a creator, telling creation believers to have an open mind, then the same totally close their mind to the creator altogether that's completely contrary. But as you wish. As I made clear, I felt, I'm not against the idea of a creator as long because it's not unthinkable but evolution happened. If a creator created man through evolution then okay but evolution happened. My point is that students deserve the truth (wont waffle on repeating what I said to yours. Intrigued, and I really want to know, why you believe evolution doesn't rival creation. |
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Post by Phil on Feb 21, 2014 14:22:20 GMT -5
It doesn't.
Evolution is an elaborate word that means change and things do change. If I heat a metal pipe with an acetylene torch the metal will turn a orangeish red and will be easy to bend. If I blast that pipe with oxygen while its in that ''cherry red state' the petal will melt.
Steel plants make iron ore into sheet metal the Ford Stamping plant makes them into car doors.
If the car is bought in the northeastern United States where there's lots of snow in the winter and heavy salt and grit to melt snow and ice on the roads the metal rusts out faster. In states with warmer and less moist climates may not rust very much at all or at least not for a long time.. That's a type of evolution by environment. And an example of how similar things may end up differently based on different circumstances.
There's natural evolution too. Volcanic action, and different climates have a different effect on the ground, the water and even the atmosphere. Ocean coasts are hit with salt water when lake chores are hit with fresh water and again the sand and ground will have a different reaction. I don't assume God chose for a cave in Duncannon Pennsylvania to collapse at a moment and not for 1 in Morgantown West Virgina to when its fundamentally the same. There's been sever findings of sinkholes in the United States in the last few weeks. The most recent newsworthy sinkhole was a Corvette museum. I don't assume God decided to punish those Corvette owners for displaying their ability to have a Vette the ground took that moment to cave in. There's not always a connection to evolving and God.
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Post by Nitro God on Feb 21, 2014 16:35:44 GMT -5
It doesn't. Evolution is an elaborate word that means change and things do change. If I heat a metal pipe with an acetylene torch the metal will turn a orangeish red and will be easy to bend. If I blast that pipe with oxygen while its in that ''cherry red state' the petal will melt. Steel plants make iron ore into sheet metal the Ford Stamping plant makes them into car doors. If the car is bought in the northeastern United States where there's lots of snow in the winter and heavy salt and grit to melt snow and ice on the roads the metal rusts out faster. In states with warmer and less moist climates may not rust very much at all or at least not for a long time.. That's a type of evolution by environment. And an example of how similar things may end up differently based on different circumstances. There's natural evolution too. Volcanic action, and different climates have a different effect on the ground, the water and even the atmosphere. Ocean coasts are hit with salt water when lake chores are hit with fresh water and again the sand and ground will have a different reaction. I don't assume God chose for a cave in Duncannon Pennsylvania to collapse at a moment and not for 1 in Morgantown West Virgina to when its fundamentally the same. There's been sever findings of sinkholes in the United States in the last few weeks. The most recent newsworthy sinkhole was a Corvette museum. I don't assume God decided to punish those Corvette owners for displaying their ability to have a Vette the ground took that moment to cave in. There's not always a connection to evolving and God. This doesn't answer my question really but just reinterprets the word evolution to meet a compromise that you do believe in evolution but in a different sense. How about "do you believe life came to be through the process of evolution and if not why?" |
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Post by Classicblast on Feb 22, 2014 0:27:42 GMT -5
In other words, Phil, do you believe in Adam and Eve or do you think humans descended from gorillas or something?
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Post by Phil on Feb 23, 2014 17:26:31 GMT -5
I certainly don't think that.
And that there's a missing link. And I do believe in Adam and Eve. Most people have believed in creation for at least 10,000 years. Even primitive tribal culture believed in a God of sorts even if they thought the sun was God they believed there was a greater power outside their control that has an impact on life on earth.
To think that all of the clergy in history and of the world was naive, foolish and brainwashed or the pawn behind a larger network pulling strings would almost take more faint than to believe in creation. I know Nitro God doesn't exactly say that but some remarks suggest that in part.
I am a believer. I don't preach to people, but I think I can tell you if you ask me that I believe and why or why not. And taht's enough in most cases.
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Post by Phil on Jun 10, 2014 13:11:10 GMT -5
I also find that Atheists are generally much more offended by religious people for believing than believers are by atheists
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