trying to understand the case of Bradley Manning

[angel607]

so from what I have read Bradley Manning was the whistle blower in the senseless killings in Iraq and when he reported it to try and help he gets 90 years in jail. I was just trying to understand this. Is it true innocent people were getting killed when he reported this because many rapists and murderers don't get that kind of sentence. I would hate to see someone who tried to stop the senseless violence go to jail. I know when you serve in the army their secrets you are not allowed to tell but if innocent people truly died shouldn't something be done to stop it? I herd when they killed people they laughed about it.

[Kimm]

Thats a whole specialized situation. Bradly Manning was a soldier in the United States army. Once you sign up for military assignment you are subject to a whole new set of laws and standards. For one thing, you can not report or go against the doings of your country or allow confidential information to leak into the public sector. Thats why he was charged with espionage.

Some people only see espionage as turning against your country and he didnt really do that, but what he did do was report or discuss things that could fall into the hands of the press, into the hands of intelligence of other countries and or underground networks who are enemies of the United States. It was an underground network who attacked this country at September 11 it was not an enemy government.

I dont particularly know what exactly happened with Bradley Manning other than he disclosed confidential military information that could place the United States in a vulnerable situation.

It isnt too different from if a Kmart employee felt the security cameras are wrong they spy on innocent people who are shopping so he turned the camera server off. And then he tells the press that Kmart monitors various things and maybe tells the press what the store pays for items and what their markup is.

That could put the store in a bad spot. He would get fired for that and possible legal charges for defamation to the store.

Only in the case of Bradly Manning he wasnt a store employee he was a soldier in the United States army.

If he feels that what the army is doing is wrong he could report it to the joint chiefs of staff, the pentagon or at least just resign before his reenlistment comes due. We are in the middle of two wars too that makes espionage problems more dangerous.


Manning may have been right about some of the things he was saying but how you go about reporting them when you are a solider is of great importance to national security.

[Classicblast]

I don't know much about this case It seems very interesting I will read up.

[Phil]

Bad things happen in wars. We have all seen that little girl in Vietnam who runs up the street with her clothes on fire, she has since said that she has forgiven the attack.

The attack wasn't on the girl exactly but what happens of course is innocent people are in the crossfire. That's always been a tragic part of war.

I have to agree with Kim though, that if he feels what the military is doing is wrong he could withdraw.

Any jeopardy caused by something told by a military person that places our security at risk is espionage. That's where Manning stands now.

In the 80s they made a movie called 'The Falcon and the Snowman' it was about a 1974 happening where a couple of drug pushers had some CIA information and were selling what they knew to Russian agents. Nobody seemed to have a problem with them having the law thrown down on them since they were not still serving in the military.

I know that when you serve in the armed forces especially at wartime you encounter some upsetting things. That is the job you have signed up for though. As Kim said there are people you can complain to if you see something bothersome and the way Manning went about it was all wrong unless he intended to sabotage the American military.

[Classicblast]

I haven't been able to find out as much as the three of you seem to know already regarding this case. I never served in the military but my brother, Terry that you know as Thunderbird did serve in the army during the first Gulf war. He was in Dessert Storm.

But he isn't here to weigh in on this right now. I am still reading up on this so I can comment because the whole thing is quite interesting.

[Phil]

Innocent people are killed in wars and that's a sad fact of life. It happens in every war.

But what could be more vile than September 11, 2001? Some people liken it to Pearl Harbor but 9/11 was worse. At least Pearl Harbor while a cowardly sneak attack, at least they did attack a military. The bombed navy ships, they committed an act of war by attacking warriors.

The twin towers are office workers, tourists, and everyday people 9 to 5ers like most of us. And they're attacked and killed. Airplanes with passengers were hijacked and used as missals--killing hundreds of passengers.

With that doesn't our military have some obligation to retaliate on our behalf? And to do what they can to reduce the possibility of someone else trying something similar?

That makes me feel that if Manning did anything to make this country vulnerable or put us at risk unnecessarily than he has committed espionage and should be punished accordingly. And before being sentenced he did have to face a military court marshal. That's a court that is military savvy enough to know if what he did was careless and only warrants discharge of if it was sabotage leading to prison. He has had due process of law in this.

[Beangirl]

Brings to mind the Rosenberg's who sold atomic secrets to Russia . They were executed.

[angel607]

i have never served in the army but my grandfather did. he's not around anymore but I just feel horrible for the people caught in the crossfire. to get attacked and be laughed at is awful and sad. I wish we could live in a world without violence or war. how nice it would be if everyone just stopped and got along and we didn't have shootings or racism. I did hear recently his sentence will be 35 years not 90 like I thought before.

[Classicblast]

That would be something if we could achieve world peace. I am sure he wouldn't serve 90 years even if that was his original sentence I would figure that 30 would be about the longest they would hold him. Unless he was violent and a rebellious prisoner unless that happened he would be out in about 30. The best years of his live will be ruined even with that though. Obviously he had a choice and its not as if professional military intelligence didn't investigate him before handing down any sentence too.

[Phil]

The best years of his life may be ruined as you said but that was a decision he made.

In any case like this, with the Falcon and the Snowman I don't know a lot about the Rosenberg case mentioned by beangirl but its another situation where they placed their country at risk to receive money or power from the enemy

And you have to be a very smart insider who is entrusted by both sides to even get the information to then sell it to the enemy who also trusts you enough to buy your info and believes you enough, after all you could be reverse espionage by lying to them for sabotage and getting paid for it. It can get very complicated.

But as I said too Chris Boyce aka 'The Falcon' escaped prison and completed 17 bank robberies and was at large for nearly 2 years before being recaptured. This guy was no small prisoner either. He was in for espionage so he had to be in high security to start with and then he escapes and while escaped he pulls off 17 bank jobs and doesn't get caught or even leave any clues. They catch him in a restaurant parking lot eating takeout food in his car.

Someone that clever makes a very bad enemy.

[Beangirl]

Ethel and Julius Rosenberg along with David Greenglass passed the formula for the atomic bomb to Russian spy's in the 1950's sparking what we called "The Cold War" They all worked for a defense plant but maintained there innocence. They had no criminal background but the were sentenced to death for treason and espionage. Lots of controversy on the sentence.

[Phil]

Aug 29, 2013 11:31:22 GMT -5 Beangirl said:

Ethel and Julius Rosenberg along with David Greenglass passed the formula for the atomic bomb to Russian spy's in the 1950's sparking what we called "The Cold War" They all worked for a defense plant but maintained there innocence. They had no criminal background but the were sentenced to death for treason and espionage. Lots of controversy on the sentence.

While I don't oppose execution, I do realize its a difficult decision to make. That being are you sure you're right about the charges and that you have the right people before you make that call. Execution is final. I understand the dilemma but I also know that national security can not be put at risk. And whenever someone does such the consequences must be severe.

[Beangirl]

I thought execution was too harsh for these two. Now the death penalty for espionage is off the table. I guess giving Russia the atomic formula was risky but so far the world has been safe.

[Phil]

I sometimes winder what made them think it was a good idea to sell secrets or that they might get away with this?

If they figured they'd probably get caught but they'd live high until that happens?

I don't just mean the Rosenbergs, mean the Falcon and the Snowman guys, even Manning but in Mannings case we pretty well know his reason was anger, and revenge. So he figured his vengeance in the form of sabotage.

[Alan]

There's so much of this though. Inside scoop for money or for deals made. It doesn't always involve government or espionage but very few things happen without someone on the inside making it happen.

You apply for a loan or mortgage there's little chance of being approved quickly unless you or someone you know knows someone on the inside to vouch for you. Otherwise you get told there's something they need more info, your spread thin at this time try again later. And it takes about 3 tries if they don't look into your past and say that its your third time trying.

An inside source gets you the loan.

Happens all the time. And in war and espionage its the same way an insider brings it together. But if Manning put the country or the military at risk he deserves the maximum of the law enforced against him.